Ask Away Classic: Are You There, God? Are You Good, God?

May 16, 2019

“How can you love such a self-centered, glory-craving God?” “Why doesn’t God want us to be certain that He’s there?” The Bible speaks clearly about God’s desire for glory, honor, and praise. Yet many people also complain that God doesn’t work hard enough to make Himself known. Can we make sense of this seeming contradiction? This week, Vince and Jo address the questions of whether or not God wants us to know He’s there, and what it means for God to desire glory and praise.

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Michael Davis: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Ask Away with Vince and Jo Vitale. I am your host, Michael Davis. The Bible speaks clearly about God's desire for glory and honor and praise, yet many are confused about what this means. Many actually use this as a reason to discount God because they say that he seems to be a narcissist. Yet in the seeming contradiction, many people also complain that God doesn't work hard enough to make himself known to those who don't believe in him. Which one is it? Is God consumed with getting attention or is he hiding when it would be possible for him to prove he exists to everyone?

This week we're going to do something a little different. Because Vince and Jo are out on maternity leave, we're actually going to replay a couple of questions from the past to show this interesting contradiction. But before we get started, Jo, can you tell our listeners a little bit about Refresh, our college prep conference coming up June 18th to the 21st at the Zacharias Institute in Atlanta, Georgia?

Jo: Absolutely. This conference is always the highlight of my year. This is the third time we're going to be running it. It's specifically aimed at those who are preparing to go to college. So if you're a junior moving into your senior year at high school or a senior heading off to college or even a college freshman, then this is the conference for you. It'll be run from June 18th to the 21st, and this year we're looking at the theme, who do you say I am. So both in relation to Jesus, who do we say Jesus is? What is the evidence for him in history, but also that secondary question of who disease the say we are? Questions of identity. Trying to figure out who you are is a great thing to have to engage with before you head off to college, because certainly, lots of questions are going to be thrown up once you get there.

It's a fun week. We usually have around 200 or more students coming down to spend time together. There's a lot of breakout sessions, so you get the chance not just to listen to talks, but to share your own opinions, learn from each other, and we have a lot of fun as well. So, really encourage you to come. If you're wrestling with questions, it might be you're a Christian, it might be you're not a Christian, but you have questions about the Christian faith, or it might be that you're somewhere in the middle and you've grown up in a Christian home, but you're not sure if this faith is your own or something that you've inherited. This is a great week to come and explore why you should believe in Christianity rather than it just be in the case of, this is what you grew up with.

Michael Davis: So we're going to get into the first question. This is from Hannah. What is the reason that God would want us not to be sure if he is there or not in the first place?

Vince Vitale: Great question, Hannah. It just seems like, look, if God wants us to know he's there, he's all powerful, surely he could just do something, write his name in the sky and we'd all believe. I guess one thing to start with is the idea that... Of course from a Christian perspective, for the vast majority of our lives, the vast majority of our eternal lives, God will be obvious. So we're just living in this very thin slice of time at the beginning of our existence where he's not so obvious, but that still leaves the question, why is he not more obvious at this point?

And I think we need to know what God's goal is before we can make any sort of assessment or begin to understand why he acts the way that he does. Now, if God's goal is just for us to intellectually believe in him, it's pretty easy for God to do that. He can just write that name in the sky. He could just appear to us right now in such a forcibly miraculous way that we would have no choice but to believe in him intellectually.

But that may not be all that he's after. Of course, when Jesus performed miracles, the religious leaders in his day plotted to kill him. So it wasn't that they didn't think that he was capable of performing miracles or that they were questioning the miracles, it was that it wasn't leading to the sort of relationship with people that Jesus desired. So what if God's ultimate goal is a relational goal? And in fact, the word belief in the New Testament might be well translated as trust, not just intellectual ascent to a proposition.

If that's the case, we have to ask the question, how can God, creator of the universe, all powerful, get us to trust him in the context of relationship? It's easy for God to just overpower us and get us to believe in him intellectually, but how can he offer us a relationship with him in a way that allows us to freely choose it and to do so because we actually trust him, and not just because we've been overpowered by him? Now it gets a little bit more complicated and now, I start to understand what Blaise Pascal said. He had this great line where he said, "God has given us enough evidence to believe in God rationally, but he hasn't given us so much evidence that we can believe in him based on reason alone."

In other words, he hasn't forced us to believe in him. And I actually was having a conversation about this with the guy sitting next to me on the plane just a few days ago, and he was saying exactly this. He was saying, "Look, there's so much disagreement about religion and everything else. Why doesn't God just do something so miraculous every one of us would see it, and we'd all have the same starting point?" "We wouldn't have a choice," he said. And then he caught himself as he said it, as those words came out of his mouth because this is what we had been discussing. And he goes, "Okay, I see what you're saying now. Yes, God could do that, but he would take away actually, our choice to choose him, and that's part of what he desires most because he desires relationship and relationship must be chosen from both sides."

Jo: Hannah, what's interesting to me about your question is you mentioned the first place in the first place, and actually, I do think God was there in a very obvious way in the first place. That's where we all started out at the beginning when he made us. That when human beings were first created, they were intimate with God. It was like being born into a family when your parents are just there. And they did have that intimacy, but the distance and the estrangement didn't come from God. It came from us. And so I think that's the current situation we're dealing with.

And so as Vince is saying, then the question is what do you do when you're at that distance? Is God just force you back together or not? And obviously, God's goal is relationship. I love the verse in scripture when it says, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with your whole heart." What I find say beautiful about our pursuit of God is that he's the one who's pursuing us first. Throughout scripture, we see that the whole way through.

And it's not like amaze, where they're all these giant hedges and a minor tour and you've got to try and make it to the middle, but God's making it as hard as possible to find him. Or it's not like some torturous game of where's Waldo or where's Wally, for those of you from my native land. God actually... In a sense, you might say he's at enough of a distance. He's hiding in some sense, so that he's not overwhelming us, but his hiding is kind of like the way you might hide if you're playing hide and seek with the game of little children.

I don't if you've ever done this, but the goal is basically to hide enough so that the kids can participate in the game, but also to be quite obviously found. Vince and I were playing the other day in our house with some friends' kids and Vince actually climbed on top of the fridge and curled up into a ball. So he was not particularly well disguised, but the kid who was running around was really short, and it just didn't occur to him to lift his eyes up and look a little bit higher.

And so all the adults in the room were just standing there laughing because Vince was so obvious. But this kid took a little while of exploring before he finally looked up and then he collapsed to the floor laughing because then it was so apparent where Vince was. And I feel like that's kind of what God does with us. God wants to be found. He's not playing games with you. He wants you to know him. That is his greatest desire, but he also won't force himself on you. And I love the creative ways that he finds to draw people to himself.

Vince Vitale: Yeah, it was pretty fun. It was a great hiding spot. It took him forever. So-

Michael Davis: There you go. I won't ask you get core principles of hide and seek hide. Hide high.

Jo: Yeah. I'm not sure how clean the top of that fridge was, that was what I was worrying about.

Vince Vitale: Ew.

Michael Davis: I would like to add that... just to unpack a little bit about what you were talking about in regards to God coming down in light of the fall. The reality of what God did, I think he... the reality is, is that with the incarnation, with Jesus, he did come and he was obvious. The Sadducees, the Pharisees, the scribes, they had the Torah, they had the prophets, they understood who the son of man would be. And even when Jesus Christ came down and was so obvious, the fulfillment of these prophecies, it wasn't obvious enough for them.

Jo: It's in the gospel of John, isn't it? When Jesus directly says to the Pharisees, when they're standing in front of him and he says, "And you search the scriptures, because you believe that in them you have the life. These are the scriptures that testify about me, and yet you won't come to me to have life." And I think it's that irony where we want life, but we want it without Jesus. And I think how much of the fact that God isn't obvious is really because our hearts availed, and we wouldn't even want to open our eyes.

In a way, it can be quite a good excuse for us. It's easier if we can just say, "Well, if God really wanted to reach me, he could write my name in the sky. He could do this or that." And we set these goals or these imaginary miracles and say, "Well, if God just did this, then I would believe." But it is a good question to ask yourself, would you believe if something like that happened, or would you find another reason for it? Because we hear all the time amazing stories and even times, we'll say to people, "That happened to you and you still won't believe?" That's the God. The point is if we don't desire it, then we can find all kinds of excuses to put God at a distance.

Vince Vitale: Yeah. I think we really underappreciate how obvious God is even today. I was thinking of William Paley's argument in the 18th century where he says, if you're walking through a field and you stumble upon a watch and you've never seen a watch before, but you open it up and you see all of these gears and this intricate machinery, and you see that it functions for a purpose, he said, it'd be completely obvious to you that this was created by an intelligent being and vastly different from the rest of the environment around you.

Well, sometimes we just need to open our eyes and look around, and look at the beauty of the universe, look internally to our conscience, the gift of pleasure and joy in our lives. And sometimes I just step back and I just think, "What am I doing here? This is amazing." The intricacy of the human eye that I'm looking at Michael and Jo with right now, we just walked through our days as if it's not absolutely extraordinary that we're here and we're living and we're sentient and we're thinking and we're communicating with each other in this vast and beautiful universe.

And I actually think if we weren't jaded by our own sinfulness, our own selfishness, the smallness of our thinking, the materialism and scientism that influences us that we often don't even realize is influencing us. If we weren't jaded by all those things, I think we would open our eyes each morning, and it would just be obvious to us that of course there's a creator who loves us and has given us the good gifts of living in this universe.

Michael Davis: I forgot who said this, but it was one of those quotes that is just amazing. Someone says, "An atheist asking for proof of God is like a fish asking for proof of water." We are surrounded by such magnificence. The heavens declare the glory of God, and we see these things, and in our own kind of internal like, I am so important, we fail to see just the glory of creation. Asking for proof of God is silly in light of just the cosmos and of just the beauty of life and of relationship and of love, all of which have no naturalistic explanation.

Vince Vitale: And it's interesting you mentioned water. Surfing is my favorite hobby, and you very rarely meet a materialist surfer. They may not be a Christian, but something about just being out in God's creation, being able to see all the ways to the horizon, just the vastness and the power of the ocean itself. That sense of the transcendent is obvious when you're spending a significant amount of your time enjoying God's creation. Unfortunately, not many of us actually do that nowadays. But I think when you're actually in the creation that God made, he is more for obvious than we often think.

Jo: I also think because we're just talking about beauty and good things and they remind us of God, but actually I think even in suffering and pain, which often people point to as a reason against God, to me, even in those places, God seems so obvious to me because I think it's precisely when suffering confronts us with so much horror that question that comes out of us is always a question of why? That feeling that something is deeply, deeply wrong with the world.

I think that also points us towards God. And when we look at people who were de-humanized and abused and wronged, and the reason that feels so wrong to us, is because it is wrong is because it is wrong. It's because it's not supposed to be that way. And if you take God out of the picture, is that really wrong? There isn't even right or wrong anyway. There isn't morality. Why is that such a big deal if people have just a random collation of atoms just dancing to their DNA?

And yet something in us, just deep down, it's just crying out and saying, "No, that person is so much more than that. Their life is worth more than that." And that's why this is so horrifying. So I think both that the beauty of the world, the evil of the world in all of these things I see, I see God at work and I see... just science is pointing me to the truth of the fact that he's there.

Vince Vitale: I just wanted to give an encouragement. I agree with everything that we said to this point, but I also wanted to give an encouragement because I've had some friends who, I think, are seeking after God and desiring to know him to the extent that we can desire that as finite and sinful human beings. And they haven't yet found faith. They haven't yet been able to have that significant belief in and trust in Jesus. And I just wanted to give an encouragement not to give up on that.

I think even in terms of an analogy with my relationship with Jo. After I became a Christian, my first year of college, I would have been happy to find someone I love and get married right away. From my perspective, I was seeking to find the person who would be my spouse right away. And actually, it took almost another... well, about another decade before that was actually the case. But I think-

Jo: Worth the wait?

Vince Vitale: It was worth the wait dear. I think actually, if Jo and I both reflect back on, would it have been better for us to meet each other and to enter into marriage when I first thought it would have been best based on my plans, or was it better in God's timing almost 10 years later? And we, without a doubt can tell you all sorts of reasons, now in retrospect, about how God was very providential in preparing us for a relationship that we're in now and for it to be healthy now in ways that it probably wouldn't have been then.

So just an encouragement. If you're on that journey, there is often value in the waiting and value in trusting in God's timing and his purposes and that it may be that when you do step into that relationship with him some time from now, it is all the more significant because of the journey you've been on to that relationship right now.

Michael Davis: That leads us into the next question from Daniela H., how can you love a God who is always after his own glory and who, in fact, created you for his own glory? It's quite obvious that he created and redeemed and dealt with people for his own glory and for the praise of his glory, Ephesians Chapter One Verse 12. How can you love such as self-centered, glory craving God?

Jo: That is such a wonderful question. Thank you, Daniella, for asking it. I think it's one a lot of people struggle with, actually. It's one I really struggled with as a teenager. Because you're right, I used to come across all these verses in scripture that talk about everything being for God's glory. Maybe it's partly because I'm British, and in England we like to understate everything. Even if you do something really well, you don't say you did it well you kind of talk about how awful you were.

So for me as an English person, reading the Bible, at times I would come across these verses and I would be like, "Why, God? Why is this all about your glory?" And I wondered, is God narcissistic? I looked up the definition of narcissism, and it's extreme selfishness with a grandiose view of one's own talents and a craving for admiration as characterizing a personality type.

And it's a good question. It's God egomaniacal? Is he narcissistic? What is going on in the Bible? But a few different things to say to this question that have helped me as I've thought it through over the years. And I think one of them is just to say that we have to remember God is not like any other human being. Any other human being you meet, he's all about their own glory. It's a very off-putting characteristic and trait. But with God, he's the only one about whom all the superlatives actually true. He's actually in a completely different category to us. He is so far beyond us. He's the one who's actually worthy of praise and actually worthy of glory.

One of our students at the Zacharias Institute the other day was sharing about something he'd heard on the radio where he basically heard somebody say that God's in control. It's his universe. You may think you're in control, but you don't have a universe. And I just thought that's just such a good way to put it because we sit here, and we're like, "Who is God to deserve the glory?" He's like, "Hello, I'm the one who made everything. I made the universe, I made you, I gave you life." If anyone actually deserves glory, it's God.

But I still get that the kind of... The heart behind the question is that, well, maybe God deserves it, but why does he seek it? I think it's maybe more of what's going on. Because it may be that he deserves it all, but why does he seem to be concerned about getting glory. And one of the things that really helped me when I was processing through this question is not just the fact that actually God completely deserves it. And I think when we get to heaven, no one is going to be there disputing whether or not God deserves all the praise, and all the glory and everything that we've got.

But actually, God being trinity really makes a difference here as well. Because I think if you just have one person who is God, then actually there's a sense in which in order for him to have anything and to have glory and to have love, he needs it from creation. He needs it. He would be dependent on us in some way. But actually because he's Trinity, God is completely fulfilled in and of himself. He doesn't need us to give him praise and glory in order to feel satisfied or complete. It's not like he's needy or insecure in some way.

Actually, God is perfectly happy within himself, father, son and Holy Spirit. They love each other eternally. Far from being selfish, I think God, in his very being, because of his love, is actually the least selfish person in marginal. He's completely selfless. You see the son giving glory to the father, and the father raising up and glorifying the son, and the spirit testifying to both of them. They're all about the other, they're not about themselves.

It's about making sure that the other gets the glory that they deserve because they're worth it, because they're amazing. And just to give you an example of this, and then I'll shut up and let someone else talk. When Vince and I first got married, we'd been married a couple of months. And I was sitting in a meeting with some people, and Vince wasn't there. And somebody's off the cuff, made a throwaway comment about Vince that they didn't even really mean, and it was spoken out of insecurity within them, and everyone in the room knew it wasn't true. But nevertheless it was kind of offensive about him.

And I remember being-

Vince Vitale: Probably true.

Jo: ... really upset. I'm not saying that he's flawless, but in this case it was not true. And I sat there both feeling really... I felt really frustrated that someone has said this about him because it was actually slander, it was actually a lie. But also being British, I'm not good at conflict. The conversation moved on really fast, and I didn't say anything. And afterwards, I walked away, and I was mad, both at the thing that had been said that was untrue of Vince because it wasn't worthy of him. It wasn't true.

But also, I was mad at myself because I didn't stand up for him. And actually, I think my point here is that when you love somebody, you want them to get the honor that they actually deserve. You want truth to be known about them and spoken of them. That's what love does. And I think that is what we see within the trinity. We see a God of love, a God who is selfless but desires for truth to be known about the other members of the trinity. And what is the truth? The truth is that God is amazing, and he's loving, and he's perfect, and he's awesome, and he deserves the glory. And I think that is why God is about glory.

Vince Vitale: Thanks for wanting to stick up for me dude-

Jo: I did. I did.

Vince Vitale: ... even if you didn't.

Jo: And if I want to stick up for Vince, how much more God?

Michael Davis: Amen to that.

Vince Vitale: I think you make a really important distinction there, is God's glory selfish, or is it selfless? And I totally agree with what you said. Michael, Daniella, thank you for this question. It's honest, it's direct, and that's really what we want on this show. So we're really grateful to get these kinds of questions in particular. And you referenced Ephesians 1:12. So I went back and read the beginning of that chapter, and I might just read a bit of it starting at verse three, because I think the context really helps.

The portion that you quoted was for the praise of his glory. And I think Jo's right that the question is, is this a self-centered glory, or is it a selfless glory? And so this is what the text says. I'll just read it through slowly and give a couple of remarks. It says, "Praise be to the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ." And then it says, "who has blessed us", so that's the initial context, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. And then it say, "For he chose us," that intentionality of choosing us, desiring us, "in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Then it says, "In love," so this out of love, "he predestined us for adoption to son-ship," so that desire of relationship and intimacy with us for our good through Jesus Christ in accordance with his pleasure and will. "To the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us," so to the praise of his glorious glory, but his glorious what? His glorious grace, "that unmarried free gift given to another in the one he loves, in whom we have redemption through his blood." So they are referencing the fact that he'd be willing to die for us out of that love for the forgiveness of sins.

Again, the incredible gift to us of the forgiveness of sins in accordance with the riches of God's grace. Again, that unmerited gift to another that he has lavished on us. And then skipping down a bit, we get to the portion that you quoted. "In him, we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."

So I just think the context really helps there. Yes, we are for the praise of his glory, but if you read that passage in context, it is saying that his glory is all about the grace that he has lavished on us by being willing to give his life for us, by choosing us in love before the creation of the world, by adopting us to sun ships. So this is not in any way a selfish glory. This is a selfless glory that has the other in mind, and that is particularly why God is so great. So I think it's a great question you asked. I think you went to exactly the right passage, and I think this is a good reminder to all of us that reading the scriptures in context is really helpful. This references glory, the rest of the passage tells us what type of glory it is.

Jo: And I think that' so often, you hear people say, "Well, you Christians are really arrogant," and I'm so sorry if you've experienced an arrogant Christian, and we can all really mess up in those ways. But also, people think, "Well, this is an arrogant God as well." But actually the place I always go to when I think about who is this God and what is this character really like, is the verse in Philippians where it says, Jesus didn't consider equality with God something to be grasped, but he humbled himself. He lowered himself even onto death on a cross. And to me, that just says it all, this isn't a God who's all about putting himself higher than everybody else. This is a God who loved us so much that he would lower himself. That is the truth of his character. That is who he is.

He's a God who would come down and die in shame and humiliation and brutal pain on a cross just so we could know him. And why? Because God doesn't just desire that we give him glory, but actually he even shares his glory with us.

Vince Vitale: Yeah. Amen. Exactly.

Jo: And isn't that astonishing, that he creates us in his image so that we could be a part of that. He was perfectly happy in and of himself as God. He didn't need to create anyone, but he doesn't do that out of a need, he does it out of overflowing love in order to draw us into relationship with him so that we too might be with him, might experience that glory and that life. And to me, that is such generosity.

Michael Davis: I really like this John Piper quote, "God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is not an act of a needy ego, but an act of infinite giving." The reason God's seeks our praise is not because he won't be fully God until he gets it, but that we won't be happy until we give it. This is not arrogance, this is grace. This is not egomania, this is love.

God knows that if we don't give him the glory and the praise, that we are going to give ourselves the glory and the praise, and that is a road that does not lead to joy and does not lead to happiness, but a road that will ultimately lead away from the person who is the source of joy and happiness. Everything God does, everything that is happening is for his glory. But that glory, and you hit the nail on the head on this, is a glory that he just amazingly decides to share with us.

This should give us joy. We shouldn't think of God as a spoiled kid saying, "I'm going to take my football home." He is sharing his football, and it is-

Jo: What if he didn't like playing football?

Michael Davis: Okay, well, how about soccer, football? Not American football? But there is nothing about God's glory that is ego maniacal or anything like that. I'm going to repeat what John Piper said. "This is not arrogance. This is grace. This is not Egomania. This is love."

Vince Vitale: Yeah, I think that's spot on. And I was reminded the other part of this question was, how could you love such a God? And I was reminded of that this past weekend, one of our colleagues was sharing a story in a talk that he was giving, and he was in a taxi not long ago and he got talking with the driver, and the driver told this terrible story of how his son got addicted to drugs and wound up in jail. And the father went and saw a lawyer and a very good lawyer said, "I can get him out of jail, but this is what it's going to cost." And what it was going to cost was pretty much everything that the father had.

And so the father sold everything that he could possibly sell to pay the lawyer who then got the son out of jail. And two days later, the son started using drugs again and wouldn't speak with the father. They were still living in the same home because it was the only shelter that he had, but they were estranged relationally. And to your point, Michael, that son will never be happy until he recognizes what his father has done for him and says, thank you and says, I'm sorry, and steps back into a relationship with him. The father's longing for the son is out of love for him, and it's out of a desire for the best for his son.

And our colleague was able to say to that taxi driver, "Do you know the story of the prodigal son?" And he didn't. And he told that story of the father who runs after the son and he asked him, "Do you know who told that story?" He didn't. He said that, "Jesus did." He said, "Do you know who Jesus was referring to when he told that story of a father?" And he said, "He was referring to God," and the man broke down in tears because he knew something of God's heart of that longing to run after his son. So that is the God that we love. That is the God that we worship. That's not a self-centered or selfish God, but it's a God that that runs after us, because we need him so badly and he desires the best for us.

Jo: I was listening to a worship song this morning that just perfectly said it, so I just want to read you a couple of verses from it. And John Piper and Hillsong, this is a strong day for us here in this studio. These are the lyrics.

Vince Vitale: Don't tell on us.

Jo: It says, "God of creation, there at the start, before the beginning of time, with no point of reference, you spoke to the dark and fleshed out the wonder of light. And as you speak, 100 billion galaxies are born. In the vapor of your breath, the planets form. If the stars were made to worship, so will I. I can see your heart in everything you've made, every burning star, a signal fire of grace. If creation sings your praises, so will I. God of salvation, you chased down my heart through all my failure and pride on a hill you created, the light of the world abandoned in darkness to die.

And as you speak, a hundred billion failures disappear where you lost your life. So I could find it here. If you left the grade behind you, so will I. I can see your heart and everything you've made, every part designed in a work of art called love. If you gladly chose surrender, so will I." And to me, that says it all, like the glory of God that he made the whole universe and everything in it, and yet just the selflessness of God who would come and die on a hill he created for us. To me, that that is the God that I love, and that's why I love him.

Michael Davis: So we are out of time. Vince, sum it up for us.

Vince Vitale: So to sum up this episode, I think if God is hidden, maybe it's us who have hidden him. Not that he's hiding himself, but we are the ones who have hidden him. And so we have to turn the question around and ask it of ourselves, why would we personally have hidden God? Because if God is hiding himself, I don't think he's doing a very good job. 2,000 years after Jesus came and God came at that perfect time with Roman roads and a Greek language that there are a couple billion people around the world who put their trust in Jesus. So if he's trying to hide himself, he's not doing a particularly great job at that.

And maybe final thing I would say is that as we ask, how could God be more obvious? And behind that question is sometimes, how can we know God more deeply? Deep knowledge of a person tends to come after a personal commitment to that person. I knew Jo to some extent before I had made a personal commitment to her, but it was only after I decided I would trust her, and I would relationally commit to her that I really got to know her with great depth and great joy as well. The same is true of God.

So if you're listening to this episode and you're not a Christian and you're saying, "I would have liked God to be more obvious. I would have liked God to be more present in my life." Maybe it's the case that you've heard enough. You know enough that you can make that decision to personally trust Jesus, and then you'll find that actually God will be more obvious than you've ever known him to be.

Michael Davis: Guys, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you all for listening, and we will catch you next week.

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