Is a Regular Job Less Important Than Ministry?

Aug 08, 2018

How do we align our career choices with God’s will? Is Christian ministry more valuable than other types of work? Is there a right way to approach our work with our faith? Vince and Jo Vitale talk about faith and work in this episode, using stories from the Bible and their own lives to shed light on these questions, re-aligning our focus on what it means to be both a worker and a follower of Jesus.

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Transcript



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Michael Davis: Hello and welcome to another episode of Ask Away with Vince and Jo Vitale. I am your host, Michael Davis. It is easy to fall into two traps. One is to think that somehow we are not serving God fully unless we are devoting our entire lives to vocational ministry, the second being that working in full-time ministry is somehow more important than secular work. There are many pitfalls and dangers in believing either of these things, and they can rob us of our joy as believers. But how can a faithful believer best be utilized by God? Are we not giving our best if we labor in secular jobs? But before we get started, Vince, could you tell us a little bit about our Emerging Apologists program and how someone can apply for it?

Vince Vitale: This is one of the programs we get most excited about here at the Zacharias Institute. We do at least twice a year. The next one will be December 4th to 7th. Applications are just about to open. You apply by sending in a video introducing yourself and, actually, by giving a short talk to camera as well. This program is specifically for people who are feeling a sense of calling into evangelism and apologetics and it's a week of mentorship with our team where you get a lot of feedback. There's a lot of interactive elements. You have one-on-one meetings talking about next steps and discernment of calling. It's a really phenomenal week. It also means you get to spend a week with 20 or 25 other people, other Christians, who are also sensing this really strong passion and commitment in the areas of evangelism and apologetics, and just being together in that community is really refining as well.

Michael Davis: Excellent. Well, we've got a lot to cover. This first question is from Kristen. "I was talking to my younger brother recently about our lives and how we are walking them out with Jesus. My brother remarked that he believes God has opportunities and dreams for us, but we can miss them if we do not prepare ourselves. Essentially, in order to accomplish his will, God will give something that was originally meant for you to someone else because you are not ready to receive it, or you just choose another option completely. For example, I got a degree in teaching when my passion was always music. I felt like I had to make this choice based on what is logical instead of my passion. Did that choice change the course of God's plan A for me?"

Jo Vitale: Kristen, I so relate to your question, and I think there are probably a lot of our listeners who feel exactly the same way as well. I think it's one of those questions, honestly, at some point, every Christian wrestles with. For me personally, I can remember feeling such a sense of wanting to live my life unto God but being so aware that life was going to pass by so very quickly, and therefore, almost this overwhelming, sort of paralyzing fear of what if I chose badly, what if I made the wrong decisions about career or who I got married to or where I went or what I did. Everything felt so heightened that I almost felt scared to make any decision, because what if it slammed a door and I missed the path and forever wandering off down the wrong way and God couldn't use me or I went with Plan B, not Plan A.

I used to think a lot about Ephesians 5, verse 15, where it says, "Be very careful, then, how you live, not as unwise, but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is." I was getting so caught up in thinking, what is the Lord's will? And this kind of pressure to make the most of every single opportunity, because I needed to live wisely.

But it was only, I think, a few years beyond that time of crisis when I was a student that I read the whole passage, and the context of what is actually being said in Ephesians 5. Then I realized that, actually, when God talks about living wisely and understanding what the Lord's will is, this whole passage isn't about what you're doing or the career choices you make or the decisions you make. It's about the way you live. It shows that God is much more concerned with how we live and who we are than what exactly we are doing.

That's why the verse talks about living as children of light and finding out what pleases the Lord. It says that the fruit of the light is goodness, righteousness, and truth, and then it goes on to say, if you want to understand what the Lord's will is, don't get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery, but be filled with the spirit. It talks about encouraging one another with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs and always giving thanks to God the father for everything, the name of Jesus.

I suddenly realized I had my priorities completely wrong. I was thinking in terms of making the most of every opportunity in terms of making the right career decisions, whereas actually, what God really cared about was who was I becoming, and was I living worshipfully for him in every single aspect of what I was doing. So I just want to encourage you just to let yourself off the hook in terms of feeling that tremendous pressure of how am I going to make things happen, or how will I know if I'm doing the right thing?

Jesus talks about today having enough trouble of its own and not worrying about tomorrow, so actually, what about just focusing in on what is the Lord calling me to do today? How can I live for God today? Who are the people who I'm going to meet? Who is he calling me to love? How can I be kind? How can I exhibit his character and do good to other people? Who can I encourage? I think the more we're living that way, focused in worshiping in our everyday, in the small things, I think the more we learn to be faithful with the little things. As Jesus says, then we'll also learn how to be faithful with much when God guides our steps into the different areas that he would have us walk into.

Vince Vitale: Yeah, that's great, and we all should be really thankful that being in God's plan A for our lives doesn't depend on something we do.

Michael Davis: Amen.

Vince Vitale: Or on our works or in how hard or how well we prepare, because if that was the case, we would all be in Plan XYZ and beyond. It is the beauty of the gospel that God brings resurrection out of death, right? He takes something that looks like a Plan B and he transforms it into a Plan A. That is the symbol and the reality of a gospel. I think that's the case in our lives as well. I was just thinking about Peter denying Jesus three times and then after Jesus has risen, him then saying three times to Peter, "Do you love me?" And then him giving Peter this significant role in the leadership of the early church.

I was just thinking and reflecting to myself how significant it must have been for Peter, the fact that he had that instance of betraying Jesus three times, and in the period of the church where the temptation to betray Jesus and to say that you didn't know Jesus would have been so strong. He had that experience, and he failed there, and yet he saw the grace of God to him, even amidst that failure in the way that Jesus re-instituted him or never turned his back on him in terms of his relationship with him and the leadership that he gave him within the context of the church, and the leadership that Peter would have shown in that early season must have had a lot to do with the fact that he had what, from our perspective, would very much have looked like a Plan B. Not what Jesus would have wanted in that instance. That he would have betrayed him, that he would have denied him, and yet God takes that supposed Plan B and shows us that, actually, in his sovereignty and his foreknowledge he had it as Plan A all along.

So, just in encouragement, we don't worship a God who just balances out the scales, right? He doesn't take all of our wrong turns and just makes sure that at the end of the day there's enough good to outweigh that bad, but he actually often takes the bad and integrates it into life in such a way that brings redemption, so it's not just a balancing out of our wrong paths or wrong choices, but it's a redeeming of them. We see that in Peter's life.

I know each of us around this table sees that in our own lives as we spend a lot of our time sharing with others, and especially with non-Christians, a lot of the time where we made choices for Plan B, C, D, E, F, and G, and it's amazing what grace it is that actually through the sharing of so many of the times that we went off course, God actually uses those very mistakes being shared with others as a way to communicate who he is and to do impactful ministry. So, it's a blessing of our faith. It's a faith not just of outweighing but a faith of redemption.

Jo Vitale: And that holds true even over very long periods of time as well, because I think sometime we can feel like, but I've wasted years. Whenever I feel that way, I look at Moses, who spent 40 years in a desert. Why? Why was Moses in the desert? Because he killed somebody. Did God want him to kill someone? Absolutely not. And you'd think, well, what a waste of opportunity. There Moses is, in this incredible position of power in Egypt. Think of the things he could have done if he'd just been there in power all of those years. The policy changes he could have effected for Israel, all the shifts he could have made. You'd think that God would have wanted the keep Moses in that position of power, and yet God did something totally different with that plan.

Those 40 years, that I'm sure Moses felt were just a tragic waste of time for so much of it. How depressing and awful. And yet, God was crafting him, not only because he had a plan to rescue Israel but also because he had a plan for Moses's own life, and he was shaping his character to be the kind of leader that God needed him to be.

I love the line in Joel, chapter two, where it says, "So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten." Sometimes I think we feel like huge swathes of our life have been eaten up by locusts, but God, as Vince was saying, he takes those things. He's the God who says, "Behold, I am making all things new." That applies to every area of our lives, and it's so beautiful to see that. It's not just in your career. It's in relationships, it's in friendships, it's in marriages. The way that God has taken things that I have epically messed up and turned it into something so much more beautiful than I actually think it could have been if I hadn't ruined it in the first place, it just blows my mind every time. That is the beauty of who God is.

Vince Vitale: You do. We see it in the context of marriage all the time, where one of us will mess up, usually me, and I'll go to Jo ask for her forgiveness, and it's amazing how, by the grace of God, if I ask for that forgiveness genuinely, honestly, directly, and I receive it from Jo, the relationship can actually be stronger after that than it would have been had I not done the thing wrong in the first place. Again, just that beauty of redemption rather than just a balancing out of the scales.

There can be consequences to sin. Don't hear us saying that that's not the case, and sometimes the consequences of us making wrong choices can even disqualify us for leadership positions, for example, at least for a season. But I think what Jo and I and Michael all want to say is that God only has Plan A's. Even when we have messed things up, he is big enough to transform anything that we've done and to weave it together into a Plan A. It's actually to have an overly inflated view of ourselves, I think, to think that we are capable of thwarting God's plans, that in some way our failings can thwart God's accomplishments or God's possibilities. He can take anything we've done, no matter how badly we messed it up, and he's big enough to make something beautiful out of it, to make it into a Plan A.

Jo Vitale: I want to encourage you that we don't see the whole picture yet. Thinking about your passion for music. Maybe God wove that into you for a reason, because he isn't done with that yet, and maybe he has a plan in a way that teaching and music will come together in your life that you haven't yet foreseen. I know, for me, I felt such a strong call to the cause of justice. I was sure I was going to be a missionary and live in Africa my whole life, and then God really shocked me by completely overturning all my plans and calling me in a different direction.

For years, I used to really feel like, is there a piece of me missing, because I wasn't getting to do the work that I wanted to be doing, like helping women get out of sexual slavery or working in the slums. That was kind of a huge piece of where my heart was, and I thought, what about all that passion for justice? How am I ever going to get to use that? Then I've just been astonished by the way that, actually, God has woven justice back into my life in the ministry that I'm doing in apologetics.

I talk more about justice than maybe anything else, and the ways that God is using it isn't the way that I thought he would. It doesn't look like what I thought it would look like on the ground in the day to day, but he's taken different pieces of my heart and my gifting and my skills and put me in a place where, actually, I think I can be more effective for the cause of justice in the work that I'm doing now than I might have been in a different situation. You don't always know how he's going to take the things that he has put in your heart that you're passionate about and use them in different ways.

The other thing to say is, we have an eternal perspective as well. There are certain things I would love to do. We often play the game, if you had five lives, what would you do with them? One thing I would love to do is be a creative writer. I love reading fiction. I would love to write fiction. I do not have time to write fiction. I don't think it's what I'm primarily being called to do in this season, but I do believe in an eternal life, and maybe one of the things I'll enjoy doing in heaven is me and God will have a lot of fun writing some great fiction together. Maybe that will be a piece of how I worship in heaven. We think in terms of our very short lifespan, but think eternally.

Michael Davis: Exactly.

Vince Vitale: Maybe Jeremiah 29 is a passage just to reflect on those wonderful words. "For I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." The interesting thing is that that line is embedded in a passage where it says, "I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you, declares the Lord, and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile." Again, this is a situation where it looks like the Israelites are on Plan B, and yet it's right in the context of that that God has a plan, and he says he has plans to prosper, not to harm, and to give a hope and a future.

Michael Davis: Okay, let's get to the next question. "Is Christian ministry more valuable than other types of work?"

Vince Vitale: This is a great question. It's such a relevant question to every single person, because either you're in Christian ministry or you're not in Christian ministry. Either you're thinking about Christian ministry or you're thinking about some other form of work. This is relevant to every single person. I want to say no, it's not more valuable. Every type of work that God might call us to is valuable. The important thing is to be doing the work that you are called to.

This is an important point, because otherwise, we wind up with a sort of Christian caste system where those who are in Christian ministry are superior in some sense, and that's really contrary to the gospel. This is something I've enjoyed thinking about quite a bit, and I think it's significant that even before there were any lost people to be saved, the first depiction of God in the Bible is as a worker. He works for six days and then on the seventh day he rested. He decided to work even when he didn't need the money, he wasn't behind on his mortgage payments, he didn't have any kids to put through college, he didn't need any boost in self-esteem. He didn't need anything at all, and he decided to work.

There wasn't any direct evangelistic purpose to that work initially, and he decided to work. I think one of the things that teaches us is that work is inherently good because God is a worker. And then, if you think about the first depiction of humankind in the Bible, it's also as workers. Again, we're before the fall here in Genesis, and God says, "Let us make humankind in our image, in our likeness." Why? "So that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky." So that humankind could work, in other words. Then the Lord took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden. Why? Again, it says, "to work it and take care of it." So the first depiction of humankind in the Bible is as workers.

Then, I think it's interesting that the first depiction of Jesus as an adult in the Bible is also as a worker. Jesus likely worked as a builder or a carpenter for 18 years or so before his public ministry. How did Jesus choose to spend most of his adult years on this earth in the workforce and not in the context of full-time, paid ministry? Again, I think that should tell us a lot about the value God places not just on ministry but on business and on other forms of work as well.

I think for all of those reasons, we really should resist any sort of sacred/secular divide where the sacred types of work, ministry, and such are the superior ones, and then secular work is something which is kind of outside of our spiritual lives. I think we really need to resist that sort of division.

Jo Vitale: I also love that the first person in the Bible who's described as being filled with the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God, is actually a craftsman. It's not the priest, it's not Moses, it's the guy who's building stuff. I think that says something about the way that God places value on the work of our hands. I think that applies to every arena of life.

When I think of the people who are the greatest role models to me in my life, it's actually not the sort of ministry leaders or the great preachers or even the missionaries, but it's people like my grandfather, who was a businessman, who loved the Lord so well in his business that he was the most profound witness. It's my mom, who was a doctor and was working in medical practice, and when she left, her partner said to her, "You've completely changed the way that I now will approach things in work, the way that you do it has more integrity and it's better."

It's those kind of differences that you make when you go out into the world, and if we're all huddled away doing ministry, who would be in politics? Who would be making the world a better place? Who would be caring for the environment? Who would be literally being the hands and feet of Jesus to those who are suffering and hurting? I wound up in hospital the other week unexpectedly, and the way the nurses cared for me, the difference it made just having someone practically physically looking after you in those moments, giving you a smile, telling you to have a blessed day. It made such a difference to me.

We need Christians in every arena. We need to be salt and light in the world, and we can't be salt and light in the world if we're not in the world and work in these arenas. So, enjoy what you do. Love what you do. Do it unto to God, but the Bible is full of encouragements about enjoying work and working hard and doing it excellently, because it says something about who you're living for, the way that you conduct yourself in your work.

Michael Davis: For those of us who work in Christian ministry, maybe you guys can...Most of the people who listen probably are not in there. Maybe you guys can unpack the...I had misconceptions about what it was like to work in ministry. Maybe you guys can help people say, it's not all sunshine and roses. Maybe just kind of explain that a little bit. There can be a pretty big disappointment for people who realize that people who work in ministry are just as fallen and just as lost as anyone else.

Jo Vitale: Yeah.

Vince Vitale: I think that's absolutely right, yeah. Important to note that as well. In the context of Christian ministry, you are working towards something that there's a lot of emotion about, because a lot of the people involved feel really strongly about what you're doing and why you're doing it. That can create, sometimes, even more relational tension than you might find in other contexts. People often say to us, "Oh wow, you got to fly to such and such a place." Don't get me wrong, that's an incredible blessing in the context of this ministry. We've gotten to see many places of the world that a lot of people don't get to see. But most of the time, we're flying in, we're driving to the church or the conference center or the university we're speaking at, and then we drive back to the airport.

Michael Davis: Sometimes in one day.

Vince Vitale: Sometimes in one day. People say to us, "Did you see?" Then they list the three things that you have to see if you've visited that city, and you sheepishly have to say "No, I saw the hotel room and I saw the conference center." Yeah, I would say for us, that travel involved, it's not always exotic and fun, and it puts a toll on a family as well. We talked about God being a worker first. He was a family even before that. The trinity existed before God did any of that work. The first thing God was, was a family. Then he was a worker, then he stepped into what we would think of as ministry.

I think in terms of order of priorities there, there can be a real toll on family that has to be taken really seriously. Then I just think there has to be a significant call to ministry. It is incredibly, incredibly fulfilling, what we do, but it's also incredibly discouraging. You go and you speak somewhere, and maybe you speak to 300 people and maybe 10 people decide they want to give their life to Christ that night.

Michael Davis: Wow.

Vince Vitale: Rejoicing in heaven, 290 people just said no to Jesus. If there were 300 non-Christians in that auditorium and 10 of them said yes, that's amazing, and 290 said no, and the few who had the biggest problems with what you said are probably going to be the first ones to come-

Michael Davis: To tell you.

Vince Vitale: ...To come right up and tell you exactly why and to challenge your faith personally. So, I think it's a significant decision and shouldn't be taken lightly and should be taken in the context of community where the people who love you most and who know you best are helping you to discern that decision as well.

Jo Vitale: I think it's a good reminder to us just to pray for the people we know who are in Christian ministry, because there is a lot of nonsense that comes of it. And there's a lot of hype, and don't believe the hype, and don't encourage hype, because it's just not true. Hopefully, if you've been listening to this podcast, you'll get a sense of who we actually are, but people often talk about, you need to build your platform. I think, why would I want to build a platform that I'll just fall off? The higher the platform, the further there is to drop.

There's this kind of funny culture that thinks if someone is in some kind of public ministry that they must have it all sorted out or they must be perfect. It's such a lie. Yeah, what people really need are prayers and they need...We keep ourselves grounded by having friend who tell it like it is, and who are straight with us and who bring challenge to our lives. I would hate to ever be in a position where you would think that you're above that or like you've got it all sorted out. Nothing could really be further from the truth, so yeah. Pray for those you know who are in ministry, and especially pray that they don't start to believe the hype that everyone else says about them.

Vince Vitale: Absolutely, absolutely.

Michael Davis: Okay. Well, this is actually a really, really good question for those of us in ministry and in secular work. This comes from Dan. "I was wondering how I should approach work and a career in a Christian way. How can I approach my work life in a way that is complementary to my Christian values and not undermining them?"

Jo Vitale: Such a great question. Lots that could be said to this. I love Colossians 3, verse 23 to 24. Says, "Whatever you do, do it heartily as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance, but you serve the Lord Christ." I think that's really the key here. If we want to live well and work well, then we do it as unto God, which means working excellently. It means bringing your best. It means not saying, "Oh, well, what's really important is what I do on a Sunday or in my Bible study group, but I can be kind of half-hearted about the rest of the week." Actually, the world is watching you. So, perform in your workplace as if everything you're doing is for Christ, regardless of whether you find it mundane or boring or just the last thing you want to be doing in that moment. Think of it always with that goal in mind.

I met a Chinese student called Grace a few years ago on a university campus, and she was considering Christianity. She actually did become a Christian, but she said the thing that was drawing her to Christianity was that, having lived in China where she didn't know Christians then come over here, she said two things. Firstly, that Christians seem to be happier than other people. Probably not always true, but I'm glad she met happy Christians.

Vince Vitale: Exactly.

Jo Vitale: But also that they worked harder, and that to me was a really interesting observation, because she's someone who comes from a culture where people work extremely hard, and it's really about proving yourself and climbing the ladder, often, in that culture, and yet she'd seen something in Christians where they worked harder but they weren't depressed over it. They weren't miserable because they're trying so hard that their worth and value came from their performance and how they did or what salary they had or their status, but they were happier than everybody else. They weren't working to be happy. They were happy in the Lord, they were content in Christ, and therefore they worked. It was that way round.

I think people see that in you. They see a peacefulness about you when your worth isn't determined by your status or your performance or how well you're doing but because you know you are in Christ and so you're doing it for him because you love him, but there's a joy that comes from that, that I think people will see if that's the way you're working.

Vince Vitale: Yeah, and it's so counter-cultural. I think there's an amazing opportunity for Christians to re-envision what work looks like. I love the way you put the question, Dan. This idea of complementarity. There should be this complementarity between our work life and our Christian values and not a tension there. The term "business," the etymology of it actually comes from Old English word that has the sense of anxiety. That's the meaning of the roots of that word, "business." That's too often how people experience work today. It's something which brings anxiety. We talk about our work/life balance, which I think is an interesting phrase, because it kind of intrinsically connotes that work is not going to be life-giving, and that's why you need a work/life balance. Then, if we're lucky, eventually we'll get to retire. To retire is to withdraw from a battle. That may not be in every circumstance what God is calling us to.

In the Old Testament, the same Hebrew word, avodah, is used for both worship and for work. I think that's a really significant starting point in terms of a Christian understanding of work. It's the opposite of a work/life balance. It's a work/life continuity, because all of life, including our work, is a gift from God, and it's intended to be worship. I think that's a really significant question to reflect on, what keeps your work from being worship? Work is supposed to be worship. If we can figure out what keeps our work from being an act of worship, then we've identified what needs to change in our work lives.

I think as Christians, we're called to be leaders in our workplaces, but leaders in a very counter-cultural way. Not as Jo was putting it, to try to get ahead and climb the corporate ladder and get to being number one. Jesus came not to be served but to serve, and he said some really interesting things. He said the last will be first, the first will be last. He said anyone who wants to be first must be the very last and the servant of all.

I think that word "all" is really significant in the context of work as a Christian. What does it look like in the context of servant leadership to be the servant of all? What does it look like to serve the person that you have the most friction with at work? That would be a great act of worship in the workplace. What does it look like to serve the person who is at the very bottom of the org chart? That would be a significant act of worship in the workplace.

Recently I got an email from a CEO of a very major company. I was really struck by his signature at the end of his email. It said his name and then it just said no title, and it just said "department, customer service." He was the CEO and president of this major company, and he had no title, no president, no founder, no nothing. And just department, customer service. I know that this man is a Christian, and he's leading a fantastic company in a way that I think honors Christ and reflects much of who Christ is to all of the people who work for him.

Jo Vitale: I'm going to say something slightly controversial here, but one other person I really admire is Mo Anderson, who is just an extraordinarily successful Christian businesswoman. Mo will actually, she'll say it this way. She'll basically say, "My goal is to make money." I think as Christians we find that really uncomfortable, because I think as soon as we talk about money, we're thinking money is the root of all evil, we shy away from it, we feel guilty for even owning anything at all. We really, really struggle with the guilt over it.

But actually, there's nothing wrong with having the desire to make money. The question is, what is the money for? And what are you going to do with it? And who does it belong to? I think, actually, my desire would be for more Christians to have more money, because I trust that they're going to use it in ways that are good for the kingdom and that are according to God's purposes.

So, having money, being successful in business isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Just the question is, what is your motivation? Is it so that you can have the status, so you can improve your standard of living, so you can drive around in your super fancy vehicle and lord it over people who don't have anything, or is it to be in a position where the money is the Lord's and you can enjoy the gifts that he gives you. You can be thankful for them, but you can also be in a position where you are well placed to be able to give to his causes, to help those who don't have. Ephesians 4:28 says it this way. "Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good that he may have something to give to him who has need."

Vince Vitale: Dan, if I could encourage you with just one more question in the context of working in a Christian way, the question would be, “when is the last time you asked forgiveness from someone you work with?” I think that's a really significant question as we attempt to be Christ-like in the workplace. It's so counter-cultural, especially, I think, in the workplace. We don't ask for forgiveness unless we absolutely are forced to. I would say go in the exact opposite direction as a Christian. Look for opportunities to ask for forgiveness.

If you haven't asked for forgiveness of anyone that you worked with in the last month, it's probably not because you had a perfect month. More than anything, as Christians in the context of the workplace, we want to be encouraging people to take the gospel seriously. We want to be encouraging people to do what? To be able to recognize their own imperfections, their own flaws, and to be able to humbly go to someone, Jesus, and ask for forgiveness for what they've done wrong. Well, what better way to model that in the context of our relationships in the workplace by actually modeling the gospel and by going to the people you work with and putting your hand up when you've done things wrong, asking for their forgiveness? That will both deepen your relationships at work incredibly and it will also point people to the gospel of grace.

Michael Davis: Well, guys, we are out of time. Vince, sum it up for us.

Vince Vitale: Well, I hope we've encouraged you today that God has a Plan A for your life. Many are the plans in a person's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails. I hope we've encouraged you as well that God is a worker and that God values your work. So often, we think if people could just experience genuine worship, surely they would want to know Jesus. We want to get them to church to experience worship. That's a great thing, and please keep doing that, and I'm glad that people do that. I have a job in part because people do that.

But even better than getting someone to church for an hour on a Sunday might be if they were working in a context where worship was taking place 40 hours a week in the context of your workplace. Again, that word, avodah, the same word in the Hebrew for work and for worship. Could it be that God is calling you to be a worker who brings worship into your workplace?

Michael Davis: Vince, Jo, thank you guys for joining me, and thank you guys for listening. We will catch you next week.

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