Why is God Father Rather than Mother?

May 06, 2020

One of the popular criticisms of Christianity is that the Bible treats women as “less than” men. The Scriptures, so the argument goes, seem to privilege men and “maleness,” asking women to cover their hair, calling Eve a “helper,” and even going so far as to identify the God of the universe as male—"Father." How can we make sense of this seeming sexism? In this rebroadcast of an episode from October 2017, Jo and Vince help unpack some of the misperceptions surrounding how women are viewed and valued in Scripture. Particularly relevant as we honor mothers this weekend in the US, Jo and Vince discuss pictures of God in the Bible, and the fact that God reveals himself in maternal ways we might not always realize.

Questions Asked in This Episode:

  1. “Did God make sexism on purpose? For example, Jesus and God are male, Eve is the bad guy in our story, etc.”
  2. “If we followed everything in the Bible, should I be wearing a headscarf?”
  3. "In Heaven, are there genders?”

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Michael Davis: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Ask Away with Vince and Jo Vitale. I am your host, Michael Davis. Our culture seems to be all consumed by issues of gender and sex. Gender norms and ethics are changing at a pace that boggles the mind, and the Christian concept of gender has increasingly been seen as antiquated and passé at best, or bigoted and sexist at worst. So what does the Bible truly say about gender? How much of the perception of sexism within the scriptures is genuine, and how much of it is misperception? How are we to live in a culture that says that we need to change our views on gender or get run over? But before we get started, though we're airing a repeat because of the special relevance of Mother's Day, Vince, Jo and I are excited to announce that we have a new episode coming next week covering the topic of Christ and social distancing. With that, we hope you enjoy this episode. God bless.

Vince Vitale: Excellent. Well we are going to get jumping into the questions and I will like to start first of all by saying thank the Lord that we have Jo Vitale here today because I personally feel completely ill equipped to talk about gender and the Bible. And I think that the fact that you have a PhD in Women in the Old Testament, which is I think where most people have a lot of issues regarding their perceived concept of sexism within the Bible. So we are thrilled to have you here tackling this question because I'm probably just going to be quiet for the majority of it. And you know that's not true, I'm sorry. I repented of that lie. Okay, so here's the first question. “Did God make sexism on purpose, for example, Jesus and God are male, Eve as the bad guy in their story, et cetera.”

Jo Vitale: That is such a good question and it's one that I have huge sympathy for. I used to struggle with this question so much. You know, I grew up in a Christian home, but I remember as a teenager, sometimes I would cry myself to sleep at night thinking, “God, what did you make me for?” And having all these dreams in my heart and adventures that I was excited to go on with God, but I just remember thinking but they're not for me because I'm female and what is my place in all this? I can remember the words of Daisy Buchanan from the Great Gatsby that once really stuck in my head. She's talking about her daughter when she says, "I hope she'll be a fool. That's the best thing a girl can hope to be in this world, a beautiful little fool." I remember thinking, is that it God? Is that what you made me for and, if so, why did you bother?

Jo Vitale: So I really appreciate this question. I think one of the places people often begin when they're asking this question of me is about the question of the maleness of God. So the way that when we read scripture, God is referred to as a father and Jesus is male. And women often look at that and say, "Well, what place is there for me in this religion that that has a God who's called Father?" And I think so often that there's a misunderstanding, perhaps because many of us have actually had terrible experiences of our own earthly fathers of what it means for God to call Himself father.

Jo Vitale: And actually this is a designation and a metaphor that Jesus himself gives us to hold on to. It's something that he really introduces in a major way in the New Testament. I think he does this so that we can know actually God, He is, but he's not just Lord. He's not just creator, but actually, “father” has an implication of a personal relationship, of a God who's saying, "I want you in my family. This is the kind of way I want you to address me and speak of me because this is the sort of heart I have for you, the heart of a perfect parent who wants to take care of you, who wants to love you, who would do anything to be in relationship with you." So I think that's what that language is really getting at.

Jo Vitale: But that's not the only language we're given in the Bible when we're introduced to who God is. God is also throughout the Old Testament. Similarly, it's given of God being like a nursing mother, or like a seamstress. I love that Jesus himself, when he looks down on Jerusalem and his heart is just torn with compassion for them, he says, "Jerusalem, I wish that I could gather you to myself like a mother hen gathers her chicks."

Jo Vitale: So it's not just the language of fatherhood and that is used of God in the Bible. And actually, yes, Father is how we address Him because that's the language that Jesus gives us to address Him by. But that doesn't mean that God himself, God the Father, is biologically male because He's not embodied. Actually, I think it's very important we understand that by being made in the image of God, part of what it means, that both men and women are made in the image of God, is because God is actually, in some ways, beyond those definitions.

Jo Vitale: Now of course, some people push back and say, "Yes, but Jo, Jesus was biologically male." Absolutely, Jesus was biologically male. And I think our struggle with that is sometimes that we think, "Well, if he's male, how can Jesus represent me as a woman or identify with me as a woman?" But I think this kind of comes back to the way that, as human beings, we're so caught up in our differences, and in defining what we're not and how we're different from other people. So other people might say, well you know, Jesus was this ethnicity, not that one. Or you know, Jesus only lived to this age so how can he identify me with me as a ninety-year-old-man? Or Jesus had this life experience, but not this one. So how can he identify with me? I think we get so caught up in how we're different from everybody else around us because that's kind of the politics we're in right now. Identity politics is all about you can't relate to me cause you haven't lived my experience.

Jo Vitale: But actually I think that the thing about Jesus's is he has far more in common with us in identity then he has differently because this is God Himself becoming human and sharing in our humanity. But also, because He's God doing that, it also means that He can relate to every single one of us far beyond the ways that any of us can relate to each other. I have far more in common with Jesus as God-made man in the flesh than I do with any other woman who's lived a similar life experience to me. I think that's what why the incarnation is so beautiful, because you have there the omniscience of God but becoming human and therefore you have both those things. A human who we can identify with, but also a God who really gets us for who we are because He's the one who made us.

Vince Vitale: And you can think back to people hearing and reading these texts in the first place and the Fatherhood of God would have been great, great news. God is referred to as Father hundreds of times in the Bible, not once in the Koran. This is a significant difference between Christianity and other religions, that you can have that type of intimacy and closeness with God himself, that He could be your father. And in that cultural context, that Fatherhood, it would have been understood as well to mean protection and provision and that you're an heir as well, that there's an inheritance for you because your father is God Himself. And as Jo has already said, there are motherly metaphors for God in the scriptures as well, and that's significant. God has all virtues, whether those are virtues that we might think of with respect to them being motherly or with respect to them being fatherly.

Vince Vitale: The word for “spirit” in the Old Testament, that's a feminine word. Same for the word “wisdom” in the Old Testament. God is personified as a woman in Proverbs. Compassion, that word literally means “moved in the womb.” That idea of God being full of compassion. God has spoken of as a have as a midwife, as a woman who searches for a lost coin. And the bride groom a metaphor as well. God in that case, is referred to in a male metaphor, but a metaphor which is directed at women who would be thinking of the bridegroom.

Vince Vitale: So we do see in the scriptures that God is Father, and yet there's not a single virtue, whether a fatherly one or a motherly one, that is not encapsulated in who He is.

Michael Davis: Absolutely. I'd like to also add onto this idea of the bridegroom. Jesus did so much for his church and the fact that he refers to himself as the bridegroom, but the church is the bride of Christ. He died for the bride. And the idea that femininity in scripture is always bad, is, I mean, that alone shows how false that is.

Jo Vitale: Yeah. For me, that the question doesn't come down to Jesus's gender, but it actually comes down to how does Jesus treat women? That's a really key piece here. How does God treat women? What has He made us for and how does he interact us? And what I love about Jesus is he doesn't have a single interaction with any women in the gospels where he's actually not breaking one cultural taboo or another, or overcoming some kind of stereotype that people had about women during that day to completely turn it on its head, and honor women, and value women. Far from looking at Jesus and thinking, "Oh, this is someone I can't relate to you," when I look at him, I think, "Gosh, that is exactly the kind of man I want to spend time with, and that is exactly the kind of God that I want to worship."

Michael Davis: I mean the fact that women were the first ones to discover that Jesus had raised from the dead. If you look at the modern concept of women and of equality, there was no paradigm for that in the ancient world. The Christian ethic and the Christian concept of woman and man and equality is a Christian idea.

Jo Vitale: You don't even need to start in the New Testament. You can go all the way back to the very first page of the Bible, to Genesis. It's so ironic to me, I meet so many women who say to me, "I'm too feminist to believe anything that the Bible says. The Bible is a book that's going to oppress me, and that goes against equality." And I'm like, "Have you read the first page?" Even just open it up to where it begins and it's saying something radically contrary to that. You know, when it says that actually men and women are alike and made in the image of God, I think maybe people have heard that so many times, Genesis chapter one, verse twenty-seven, that it kind of washes over you.

Jo Vitale: But for an ancient context, those words absolutely radical. No one else in the ancient world thought the men and women were alike made in the image of God. If you look at Plato for example, one of the most advanced thinkers in the Greek civilization, he would say that it's only men who were made in the image of God, and that actually if you're a dishonorable man, then you'll be reborn as a woman second time round. So not the most flattering portrait is it?

Jo Vitale: But my point is this, often women will say to me, "Christianity doesn't treat me as equal." I would say actually it's only when you go back to biblical faith that you have a grounding for equality because it says “You're equal because you're made in the image of God.” And actually naturalism isn't going to get you there. If it's all about just the survival of the fittest and the strongest, then there is no such thing as equality. It's all about who can dominate the other, who can rule over the other. And if you just want to look at biology, not in every case, but more often than not, that that is going to be men who are stronger than women. Whereas it's actually within Christianity that we have a framework to say, "Hey, it's not just about this naturalism that says your worth comes down to what you can do, or how well you perform, or how good you are a survival. But it says, "No, you are equal because you're equally made before God and he has bestowed you with equal value."

Jo Vitale: So I love the heart of feminists who care about justice and they're passionate about a good virtue. But I would say the virtue you're looking for, actually, you can only ground that in the Bible. That's where you're going to find the meaning and worth and value that is in you because God gave it to you.

Vince Vitale: And again, going back to the beginning of Genesis, I love that when woman is made it says, it is not good for man to be on his own. And so even back then, right at the beginning, we men were not doing well on our own, right? And far from there being a statement there of some sort of hierarchy where men are better off or doing better off on their own than women, it's an expression of need and dependence and mutuality. And to what you said as well, Michael, about women being the one who were at the resurrection, that is absolutely tremendous.

Vince Vitale: And the cultural context here, I learned this from you, Jo, that Jews prayed every day in Jesus's time, "Thank you God. I was not born a Gentile, a slave or a woman," and a woman's testimony would not be admissible in court. And God decides to honor women by them being the first to be witnesses to the resurrection of Christ. And so actually for each one of us, for everyone who is a Christian today, we can trace our faith back at some point to the testimony of women who were trustworthy and faithful disciples of Jesus. So that's an incredibly honoring way for God to treat women.

Jo Vitale: I think what else I love about this is God doesn't just value women as if they're meant to be sort of beautiful ornaments on a shelf as Daisy Buchanan might think. But actually He also creates them with purpose too. They have a role to play in God's plan, and frankly it's amazing anyone gets a role to play in God's plan. Any kind of role at all, even the smallest one, is overwhelmingly humbling. It's so beautiful to me. When you look at Genesis too, so many people struggle with that text. I think they think, "Oh, what's going on in the way that Adam and Eve were made?" And particularly this line where it says, I think often our Bibles translate it as "suitable helper." People think, "Oh, does that mean Eve is created in some kind of lesser role than Adam?" as if she doesn't have her own part to play.

Jo Vitale: But actually, whenever that word there, "helper," is used throughout the Old Testament outside of that text, it's used to describe God, the help of God when people need it. And the word that that comes with it, "suitable," actually is not a great translation. This Hebrew word, a better word for it would be “counterpart.” It kind of means “like a mirror image.” It means sort of equal and opposite. So the idea is not that and women are made in some ways lesser, but actually she's given a role to play with Adam. It's not that God creates Adam for one thing and her for another. There isn't a division of roles there. The point is she's to be a helper because they have to do it together, because things are done better when we're in community, when humanity are working together as opposed to being separated off and doing different things.

Jo Vitale: This is probably a fair challenge, that often people will say, "Yeah, but Eve is blamed for everything. She's presented as the bad guy in Genesis three." But actually, I think that's more a cultural misunderstanding than what the text is actually saying. Because when you read the text it actually says that Adam was there with her the whole time. It's not that he isn't in that scene. He's there beside her and he doesn't put up a protest or have his arm twisted in that moment. The point is, they're both disobeying God. And that's why they both wind up paying the consequences of that. And Adam tries to blame it on the women.

Jo Vitale: Back to this question of, “Did God make sexism?” I don't believe God made sexism. I believe He made us different, but equal. But I believe sexism comes in at the full when sin comes into the world. That's when we see the breakdown of relationships between men and women. We see Adam point the finger at Eve, and he says, "This woman who you gave to me, she gave me the fruit and I ate it." He's already trying to blame her. And I think what we see throughout the rest of the Bible is a breakdown in relationships between men and women, a sort of ongoing bloody battle of the sexes, if you like. But that isn't how God intended it to be. And I think you can see the direct link between the fall and the change in perception and the way men and women treat each other.

Jo Vitale: Actually, in Genesis chapter six, we have this story about these mysterious sons of God, and we can talk more about that another day. But these sons of God who see the daughters of man. The texts says, “They see them, they see that they’re fair, and they take them for themselves.” And actually that the language that the three words used directly parallel the same language as when the woman looks at the fruit. She sees that it's fair and so she takes it. It's a deliberate paralleling to show that, actually, that first sin, that first thing that goes wrong in the garden, has now been multiplied in human relationships. So that men, instead of seeing women as one flesh, as someone who is the same, who's different, differently made but equal, and sharing this kind of unity that they were designed for, which I think we have a beautiful blueprint for in Genesis chapter two.

Jo Vitale: Instead they begin to see each other as other, as enemy, as someone to take almost like an object, like a piece of fruit that can be consumed rather than a human being made in the image of God. And I think sin is the cause of sexism, and that's what we see throughout so much of the Old Testament. We see that the fall out, the terrible breakdown in relationships between men and women because our relationships have been broken with God.

Vince Vitale: That's really helpful. And we see in Genesis that when Eve eats the fruit, there's a specific mention that Adam was with her. But then also you can go to Romans five and hear it very explicitly, Therefore justice then entered the world through one man. Right? So there's clearly there guilt given to both the woman and to the man. And as Jo pointed out, then they both started finger pointing. The woman pointed at the serpent and said it was his fault, and Adam pointed at Eve and said it was her fault, and that never gets you anywhere.

Vince Vitale: The other thing I just wanted to say real quick, when you're talking about “helper,” it just struck me as you were as you were speaking Jo, isn't it interesting to note about our culture that we don't receive the word "helper" as a positive word? I put myself in that category as well. And yet I think if we were actually living in the state that God intended for us, wouldn't it be such a compliment to be called a helper? I mean, isn't that what Jesus did? Right? Jesus came down to help those who were in desperate need of help. So isn't that something we all should be striving to be? It's an interesting, maybe commentary, on our culture that that's a word that we tend to want to distance ourselves from.

Michael Davis: Jo, if you could unpack a little bit about the differences between what actually happens in the Bible as affirmation of something being positive. So for example, the different things that a lot of people like as proof texts show that the scriptures are sexist, and then also the difference between those affirmations, and then also the difference between just the fact that we're just dealing with certain things as a fallen creation.

Jo Vitale: Yeah, I think it's people often aren't making the distinction between something being proscriptive and descriptive and you need to think, "Oh, if you read it in scripture, it's because God is in favor of this. He's endorsing it. He's saying this is how it was and how it shall be." Whereas actually so much of what we're reading in the Old Testament is an example of the devastation that comes because we turn our backs on God, and we've turned our backs on each other. Then we just use and abuse each other in the most kind of horrendous ways. The only good thing about it is the way that God, in unbelievable graciousness, bears with us and keeps trying to point us in a different way and brings us to a point where he can come in and rescue us.

Jo Vitale: I was speaking to a university student last year. She had started reading the Old Testament and then was incredibly put off by it because her Christian friends had said, "Hey, just read the Bible. That will show you what God's like." And then she started reading some of the stories in Genesis and she thought, "How can this possibly be a good God if you see Lot behaving this way with his daughters, or you see examples of polygamy, or you see rape, or all these horrible things." But no one had ever explained to her the point that they're there not because God is approving of that, but actually just show what happens when we turn our backs on God and turn away from him. So I just think for some of us we have a fear about scripture.

Jo Vitale: Some of these texts we find hard, and rather than digging into them to try and understand them, we walk away and assume it's oppressive and against us. Whereas I just want to encourage you if you're listening, if you're finding a passage difficult, don't shy away from it. Actually dig into it. Speak to other Christians who can help you understand it. Go away and read commentaries on it. Try and get to grips with what's going on, both in the cultural context, but also in the context of the book that you're reading and the passage that you're reading. Ask why is this story even here? So often for me, the texts that when I first came to them I really struggled with and thought were against me, the more I've dug into them, the more I realized actually, wow, this is radically good news for me as a woman rather than being news that would oppress me.

Vince Vitale: Another way of putting what's been said is, you might say, God finds these really hard passages as well. He finds them so hard that He came and gave his life so that ultimately we could live in such a way that this would not be the case. So as we read through the Old Testament, we're seeing exactly what it is that is so bad, and God is convincing us of that through the Old Testament, that He had to come and die for it. So that's a real discussion there. And I think if you do want to know what God does affirm, then read the stories of Jesus's life. Read the four gospels, read the words of Jesus. He is one with the father. He will tell you explicitly what it is that he's affirming.

Jo Vitale: And what's so beautiful about the way Jesus affirms women is that actually, so often he's affirming the very thing that the men in his culture are going right against. So just one example of this would be the way that Jesus talks about female appearance. So in his culture at the time, there was a general perception that actually beauty was a very dangerous thing, and that men should do everything they possibly could to avoid interacting with a beautiful woman because she would cause you to stumble. But in that context, it was understood that it would be the woman's fault as a seductress rather than the man's fault for struggling with lust in the first place. So for example, we even find one Jewish text which states that, actually it's more dangerous to work behind a woman than it is to walk behind a lion, which just makes me chuckle a little bit.

Jo Vitale: But then Jesus speaks into this culture where there are so many texts written around this subject. And then what he says is really shocking in a Sermon on the Mount. And he says, "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Now, any man hearing that, they would have been blown away by what he's saying because rather than pointing his finger at women and saying, "Hey, it's your fault for leading the man astray," he's saying, "Actually if you're struggling with lust, you can't just blame the person who's the object of your lust, but it's your fault for objectifying them in the first place." Actually, this begins within our own hearts. Rather than seeing these women as someone to be objectified, you need to look at them as at the women of God, that they are created in the image of God who loves them.

Vince Vitale: Yeah. And then when you continue reading and you get to Paul in First Corinthians, you find exactly the same thing. And Paul, this remarkable statement that actually husband and wife own each other's bodies, but in both directions. That the wife owns the body of the husband, and that the husband should love the wife as Christ loves the church and lay down his life for her. I mean, these are statements that would have been radically, radically pro-women at the time, and still today. In fact, it's the first time that it's actually stated that a man can commit adultery against his wife and not just in the other direction.

Michael Davis: That leads us to the next question that we have. “If we followed everything in the Bible,” so here's an application question, “should I,” and it's not I, it's the question asker. Should I be wearing a headscarf? I'm a girl.” That's the question.

Vince Vitale: You should be, Michael.

Jo Vitale: You should be wearing a headscarf.

Michael Davis: Should I redo this question as the asker said? She wants to know if to be faithfully following the Bible, should she be wearing a headscarf?

Vince Vitale: It's a really fair question and I can certainly remember reading through the Bible and having many questions about just wanting to take the word of God seriously and saying, on face value this is the way it's asking me to live and so shouldn't I be following all of these six hundred laws in the Old Testament and things such as this that we find in the New Testament as well. So just to affirm that question, it's a really good question. And it helps to reveal some principles for how to read the biblical texts that I think are really important.

Jo Vitale: And I think the principle here is “what did it mean to wear a headscarf at that time?” What did that actually signify and symbolize within the culture. And what it symbolized in the culture actually is that you're a married woman. If you were married in that day and age, you would wear a headscarf. In fact, we even find evidence for this in both the writings of Josephus and Philo who discuss you'd go through a trial if someone's accused of adultery, and the first thing they would do, would be to take the headscarf off of a woman, because if she had broken her marriage vows and been unfaithful, then she would no longer be counted as a wife. So that's the context that we're looking at this verse in. So to wear a headscarf means that actually you're married women. Maybe a little bit like you might say, the way that we wear wedding rings today.

Jo Vitale: I think we need to understand the early church, they're not meeting in big public churches or cinemas like some of us do today, but actually they were meeting in people's homes. So I think what was going on was a little bit of loosening of the rules because they're thinking, well I'm at home so I can behave as if I'm at home. So maybe I don't need to be wearing my headscarf. I could just do what I would do among my family and take it off. But actually, I think what Paul is saying here is he's speaking about order and being appropriate, because actually even if you're meeting in a home, this is still a public gathering and actually you don't want to be misleading men, but actually you want to be helpful and you want to be honoring of your husband because Christianity doesn't do away with marriage. It affirms and honors marriage and particularly hair was seen as a woman's glory, as actually something that that would be seen as delighted in by her husband and therefore maybe something for only him to see, as within the appropriate context of marriage.

Jo Vitale: But I think sometimes people get us get so caught up on this idea of “Can I wear a headscarf?”, that they're missing the whole gist of this text, which is saying behave appropriately with one another. Honor your husband as your husband should honor you because neither one is independent of the other. But once you have that and you're behaving with love towards the person you're married to and with appropriate honor, look what you're able to do. Look at the freedom you have as a Christian woman to pray and to prophesize. And that's what they're doing within the church. They have these incredible freedoms to be part of the worshiping community, to be honored in those ways as part of the people who speak within that community. Paul's just saying, “Don't do that in a disorderly way, but do it in a way that respects culture and respects your husband.”

Vince Vitale: So an analogy to the headscarf might be if I always wore my wedding ring when I was alone with Jo, but then whenever I was in public, I took it off because I didn't want people to be able to identify that I was married. And I can tell you that would not go down well. But I think it's a really great question because it helps us just think through how do we approach reading the Bible. And I think it's always helpful to ask two questions. First to ask, what does the Bible say? And then ask, why does it say it? What was the intention of the author? What was the author trying to communicate?

Vince Vitale: So if the Bible says that the earth shall never be moved, that's what it says. But then you ask the question, why does it say it? Does it say it because it wants us to believe that the earth is literally not spinning, or does it say it because it wants us to believe in the unchanging nature and the sovereignty of God? In that case I think clearly the latter. And asking that question, it helps us to know what the author intended to communicate by his words and therefore what we should believe as Christians.

Michael Davis: Yeah, and that is the reason why we have to read the scripture within context, and understand genre, and understand a lot of the things. It's so easy. I mean, you can see the atrocities and the horrors that have been committed upon. I mean, let's just talk about genders, about how women have been mistreated throughout the past by using certain scripture out of context. And that's just an affirmation of how we need to take studying the scriptures seriously. And we have to understand the context in which the scriptures were delivered.

Michael Davis: Okay, so we're going to hit our last question of the day. “In heaven are there genders?” Jo, this is all yours.

Jo Vitale: Gosh, this is such a big question, isn't it? But in a nutshell, I would say yes. I believe that when God created us, He created us as embodied beings. You know, we're not just souls separate from our bodies. They're not incidental to who we are, but actually our bodies, our gender, are a core part of who God has made us to be. I think that's why we're a faith that believes in a resurrection of the body. And when you look at the way Jesus is presented post resurrection, he's still presented as male within the text. That isn't something that no longer belongs to him anymore. But I think the beautiful thing about the vision of resurrection is just like every other part of ourselves, it will be redeemed and restored.

Jo Vitale: So many of us in different ways we struggle with all the cultural baggage that can come with this gender. Maybe some of us are struggling in our gender identity and that has been a real wrestle. Maybe for others of us it's more that there have been certain things put on you in your cultural background that said, "We have to do this because it's female, or we have to do this because that's what men do." And in one way or another it's kind of warped or distorted gender to become a negative thing for you.

Jo Vitale: But actually my understanding is that God redeems all things in the resurrection, including us being who God has made us to be. It was the early church father Irenaeus who said that the glory of God is man fully alive. And I'd like to add to that I think the glory of God is also woman fully alive, fully who God has made us to be in. I think rather than feeling frustrated by that, that is going to be a glorious thing when we discover what it means to truly and fully be a son or daughter of God.

Michael Davis: Well, I think that's a great way to wrap this up. Jo, Vince, thank you guys very much for joining us. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week.

Vince Vitale: See you next time.

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